Q)Bhagavan, what is the difference between your teachings and the other great teachings?
A)Basically, for example, other teachers say, "Be aware of your mind. Be
a witness." and all those things. What I am saying is, "It is not
possible for man. Most teachings are impractical. If one tries to
practice it, he might actually go into certain problems you know. Like,
he may become insane. People will become depressed, all kinds of problem
will occur. People may commit suicide. Many things will happen like
that, because those teachings cannot be practiced. For example, they
talk about "Practicing Awareness". That's impossible! To practice it.
But, my statement is - They are describing their state. They did not
practice those things and get that state. They got that state. Because
they got that state, it was possible for them to be aware of. Without
the state you cannot be aware of. Similarly, when it comes to Ramana
Maharishi, my stand is - Ramana Maharishi first had a death experience.
Therefore the question "Who am I" made sense to him. But to
a person without a death experience it won't make any sense. So, my
stand is - Most teachings won't work. They give some clarity about life.
But then you cannot practice them, because you must be in an altered
state of consciousness. Then it is very natural.
For example, it is very natural for a man to be jealous, very natural
for a man to be angry. So, if you are talking about not being jealous,
not being angry - you must be like a Buddha or a Christ. Buddha and
Christ had a different state of consciousness. So, my stand is, I will
give you that state. Once I have given you that state, then naturally
you have no jealousy, you have no anger, you have no frustration, you
have love and bliss. But you can't try to get love, because the love
that we are talking about is unconditional love. However much you try
you can't get there. You are full of jealousy. Through effort you can't
get to non-jealousy. From jealousy you can only go into jealousy, you
can't go into non- jealousy. So whatever you do, you are trapped. So my
whole thing is - this whole thing is not a psychological process. It is
a biological process. Now what I do is, I basically work on the human
brain to activate this mystical power. So infact I myself don't have to
work directly also. These Dasas who are enlightened, they are in tune
with me. Everyday we do this process. I transfer the power to them and
they inturn will go and touch. Then, as they touch, the brain undergoes
a transformation. So, to me, if you take Ramana Maharishi, his brain
underwent that transformation. Therefore Ramana Maharishi is in that
state. Jiddu Krishnamurthy is in that state because his brain underwent
that process. A Buddha is a Buddha because his brain underwent that
process. So, unless your brain also undergoes that process, you cannot
be a Buddha, you cannot be a Ramana Maharishi, you cannot be a Jiddu
Krishnamurthy. You cannot be anybody.
So that is why I am telling, all teachings are useless. All that they
can do is that they can make you into a seeker. You start desiring for
it. They are describing Bombay, so begin to seek Bombay. You know there
is no way for you to get to Bombay, because you must undergo the same
Neuro-Biological transformation that these teachers underwent. What is
involved here is Neuro-Biology. So what we give is called the "Deeksha".
The Deeksha is transfer of power to certain parts of the
brain. Then certain parts get activated, certain parts get deactivated
and you can get into any spiritual states you seek for. It could be a
Christian state, it could be an Islamic state, it could be a Buddhist
state, or a Taoist state. So each of these states depend on a particular
activity of the brain. So I belong to all faiths. I have Christians, I
have Muslims in the movement, you know. So whatever state you want I can
give it to you. So, my whole teaching is - IT HAS TO BE
GIVEN TO YOU.
Q)Is there any difference between the various states you mentioned - the
Buddhist, Islam, Christian and the Taoist states?
A)There is a difference. A Buddhist state will be, for example,
technically when we speak, you know what is called the Agneya Chakra? If
that Chakra is activated you get a Buddhist state. If Visshudhi is
activated you get a Islamic state. If Anahatha is activated you get a
Christian state. If the Sahasrara is activated you get a Hindu state. So
these Chakras are actually located in different parts of the brain. But
what is common is, in all those states there is no suffering. There
is love. There is joy. But the actual experience is different between
each state. So as far as I am concerned, you choose your state and I am
prepared to give you that state. I can just give it to you, because I
know what technicality is behind it. Without knowing the technicality,
simply going on talking, talking, talking, what is the use? and the poor
seeker goes on listening to teachings. But things won't happen. He'll
loose interest in his family life, he'll loose interest in the
world. Ultimately he'll become depressed. 30 to 40 years he will be
seeking. He will be doing sadhana. He'll get some peace, some joy, but
no progress. He begins to loose interest in spirituality and religion.
He becomes frustrated. Then ultimately he becomes a nuisance in the
family itself. Being a frustrated man he cannot enjoy life. So he
becomes a burden on others. Anybody who is unhappy, who is frustrated,
who is suffering, he will cause trouble to others.
So that is why I do not believe in propagating teachings. My thing is -
Come, straight away get the state. After you have got the state, use the
teachings to understand the state. Suppose you are in a Buddhist state,
the Buddhist teachings will help you know exactly where you are. A
Christian teaching will help you get clarity into a Christian state. The
teachings come after the state, not before. So I maintain, all teachers
are putting the cart before the horse. So, if you are a good
teacher, give the seeker the state. Give it to him first. After having
given it, then give the teaching. You may give a little in the beginning
to help him seek. That's all. Then quickly go on to the state itself. If
you have no ability to give the state, then you have no right to talk.
Suppose I am talking to you something, I must be in a position to give
you that state. If I cannot give you, I should not talk. I should not
say - "Oh, so beautiful my state is. You also try, you will get it."
Well, it does not happen that way. Ramana Maharishi did not apply his
teachings to himself. He first got the state. It happened to him. Then
he began to speak. Jiddu Krishanmurthy, did not apply his teachings. He
got the state. Thereafter he began to talk. So, is there any single
teacher who has applied his teaching and got there? Nobody. So when you
have not applied and got there, how is it you teach others? You are
telling, "You practice compassion, you practice love, you over come
lust". Is it so easy to overcome lust? Do this and do that. And the poor
fellow keeps trying and trying. And the enlightened person is made into
a model. He thinks that's how you become that. He is trying and he is
ruined. That is why I am against the practice of spirituality. So in
that way I am very very different from other teachers. They say - Nobody
can give it to you. You have to make it on your own. I am telling, "Till
dooms day you will not make it on your own. It has to be given to you".
Exactly opposite. That's where we differ.
Everyday I am producing hundreds of sages. You can come and see. It'll
take 3 to 4 minutes. That's all. One touch and a seer is produced. You
can meet the villagers - Muniamma, Kuppamma, Munuswamy - in unimaginable
states. All that happened was just one touch. Then the teachings come
out. Now if they talk, they will excel some of the greatest teachers of
all times, because their state is talking. You can see live people,
ordinary people, ordinary villagers, not just one or
two - hundreds. Fully enlightened, who can do miracles, healing
miracles. So, this is a strange village. Even as you walk you will be
meeting Ramana Maharishis and Buddhas. But only things is they are not
as famous as Ramana Maharishi and Buddha. They are ordinary people. That
is the only difference. When you talk you will know. "My goodness what
is this!" They have been produced liked that. If you are a true guru,
you must produce it. Otherwise why do you teach?
Q)Is this movement based on scientific theories?
A)Mine is purely science. See if I meet a Neuro-Biologist, I will talk
to him in terms of temporal lobes, parietal lobes - so I will talk in
terms of pure science. So I go hand in hand with science. I welcome
science and I believe the day has come when science and spirituality go
together. So for me everything is science only.
Miracles do happen. This movement is producing healers everyday. So we
train up people to be very good healers. Some miracles I do myself. If
you talk of science, there was a lady recently whose tongue was cut off
in the cancer institute. Now the tongue has come. But, they are not
speaking a word about it. They are only telling that Chemotherapy was
done and it became alright. They are not speaking one word about the
growth of the tongue. That, I am saying is not science. If you are true
to science you must say, "The tongue has grown". You must investigate
it. How can you suppress a fact? When you have cut a tongue and the
tongue has come back. This does not happen in western countries.
Q)Bhagavan, are you God?
A)Basically, it is like this. God essentially is unmanifest. That is, He
cannot be seen, He cannot be spoken to. But He is there. But since you
cannot see, you cannot speak to, He is as good as not being there as far
as you are concerned.
Then, the God that people normally talk about is the God who you call as
Antaryamin. i.e., He can be seen inside, you can talk inside; He can
appear to so many and disappear. That's what people normally refer to as
God. Sometimes God can incarnate in physical form. That's what is called
an Avatar. I am an Avatar. In that sense I am God. But if you
ask me - am I that unmanifest God right now, I am certainly not because
I am fully physical. But I am God in the sense that I am an Avatar. So,
God has these three faces. The example I give for this is - steam, water
and ice. They are the same thing. As steam, it is everywhere. You can't
control it. A liquid is more controlled, but still it is moving. Ice is
much more solid. The physical Avatar is something very solid. So,
Miracles happen around the physical Avatar. You can come to me. You can
talk to me about your problem. The problem is solved. If you come to me,
I can say, "OK, this will happen, that will happen". Many, many miracles
will happen. Now, it is very easy to contact me than to contact the
manifested God and still more difficult to contact the unmanifest God.
That is the advantage. You take my picture and you talk to me. The
response comes back.
And I am not claiming that I am the only Avatar. There have been Avatars
from time to time. The world is full of Avatars through whom God is
acting. That's all.
How can we tackle the Ayodhya issue?
To me all problems, whether they are economical problems, or political
problems, they all emanate from one basic problem. That is, man is not
enlightened. So, if one problem disappears, another problem will crop
up, if you are not enlightened. Today, it might be Ayhodhya, tomorrow it
might be something else. So the ultimate solution is that man must
become enlightened. And I maintain that large numbers of people will
become enlightened, starting from June 2004 and by September-November
2012, most of humanity will be enlightened. When that happens? The
problem will just disappear. That is my solution to the world's
problems. I don't believe in national boundaries. Dividing the world
into nations, into countries, into religions - as long as there are
divisions there will be suffering. All divisions must go. If all
divisions must go, the 'Self' must go. That is Enlightenment. Unless man
becomes Enlightened, there will one problem or the other. Say there
is water in the pipe. If you press it here, it will bulge somewhere
else. If you press it there, it will bulge somewhere else again. Ayodhya
might go, something else might crop up. Where is the end to all this ?
So, the ultimate solution is that man must be transformed. If man is
going to live the way he is living, he will destroy himself. With all
these nuclear weapons, ecological pollutions and other conflicts. We are
only racing towards destruction. Unless there is a transformation in his
consciousness and he becomes a totally new being, there is no hope for
man. I am interested in man's problem. That will take care of this
problem also.
Suppose Hindus and Muslims, they can no more see themselves as Hindus
and Muslims, where is the Ayodhya problem? But otherwise where is the
solution? The same thing can be applied for India-Pakistan also. It also
boils down to a religious problem only. And you must out grow religion,
which means you must outgrow the 'Self'. So, we need a radical
transformation of man, which is possible. I never talk about that which
is impossible. I can demonstrate to you that it is possible.
What is the root cause of fundamentalism? How can it be rooted out?
You see, fundamentalism is basically because people are not able to cope
up with the changes that are happening. The world is moving too, too,
too fast. So the old is not prepared to give way to the new. If you are
not prepared to give way to the new, then fundamentalism arises. It can
be Islamic fundamentalism, it can be Christian fundamentalism, it can be
Hindu fundamentalism. But the fact is we cannot stop these changes from
occurring. So, more changes are likely to take place and there could be
a growth in fundamentalism also. Again and again I see only
Enlightenment as the solution, because the world
is growing very, very fast. You are not prepared to give up your old
ways, which means you have become a fundamentalist. That's what is
happening. Islamic world is not able to cope up with the changes that
are occurring and that is the root cause of fundamentalism. So, if you
must be able to cope up with these changes, you must outgrow the 'Self'.
So, ultimately, you come back to enlightenment as the solution.
How can we achieve this kind of Enlightenment?
What I am maintaining is - 60,000 people must become fully enlightened.
If 60,000 people become fully enlightened, all else is automatic. i.e.
Automatically everywhere people will become enlightened. That's all.
It's automatic. A natural process. But to trigger it 60,000 people must
go into a very high state of enlightenment. If they emerge on the
planet, then the whole planet will be in that state. So my work is only
to produce those 60,000 people. So, I believe that by 2012 I will be
able to achieve it. Latest is 2012. It could well happen before that.
When that happens, their mere presence on the planet brings the
transformation. You don't have to know about the movement, come to the
movement, nothing. Wherever you are, suddenly one fine morning you will
be enlightened. You'll become very calm, loving and peaceful. It's
natural. It happens. That's all. That's what we are doing. So we have
allotted some numbers to every country. We have people in every country.
All are working towards this. So, if 60,000 people if we successfully
reach, it's all over.
What is your vision and mission?
My vision is that there must be the Golden Age by 2012. My mission is to
make 60,000 people enlightened. That's my mission. The way is - I give
Deeksha. That's my vision, mission and way. I simply give Deeksha. I am
not asking you to do some terrible practice. You simply come and take
Deeksha. That's all. You are enlightened. Like this I want 60,000
people.
Is the state you intend to give a permanent and irreversible one?
Yes, yes. Because this is a Neuro-Biological transformation. It is not
psychological. If it is psychological, it'll come, it'll go. I am not
working on the software. I am working on the hardware - the brain
itself. I am bringing about the mutation of the brain. Because when the
brain has changed, the hardware has changed. It's permanent. If it's
only in the software, it'll be there for a few days, few hours, few
minutes, few seconds and go away. This is a hardware transformation. You
can meet these enlightened people actually to understand this
transformation. I am not talking about something that is going to happen
in the future. I am talking about things that have happened. Its
finished. We have every country. We have Japanese, we have Russians, we
have Americans, we have Swedes, we have Indians, all in these states.
We are producing more and more. That's what it is. We are basically
giving it to people.
After bringing in the Golden Age, what is next?
See, the 'next' is of no consequence to me at all. Because what would
have happened is, in the Golden Age, people would be happy. My only goal
is to make people happy. Once that happens, it's Good Bye. They can do
whatever they want. I have no other goal. It is to make people happy.
That's all. After that they should be full of joy and bliss. There
should no suffering. If a person is happy - eating, drinking, walking -
everything is joy for him. So, whether he is driving a
Bullock cart on the road, that's not my problem. But you should be
happy.
Can you tell us about your transformation from Vijay Kumar to Bhagavan
Bhagavan?
See, there has been no psychological transformation in my consciousness.
From day one, it has been the same.
Who is your guru?
I have no guru. It is not that I was seeking enlightenment and I finally
became enlightened. For me from day one it's the same thing. This Vijay
Kumar to Bhagavan transformation happened in a place called Somangalam,
Madras, where we had retreats. Some people began to see me coming in a
horse - a vision, with a sword and all that. So they began to use the
word Kalki. Slowly it began to spread. And they were composing some
songs and they were singing. That's how it got stuck. We made some
efforts to remove that name. But the more we made efforts the more it
got stuck. Especially, people in North India refused to accept any other
name.
But I am not saying that I am the Kalki of the puranas. That Kalki who
is suppose to come after some 4 lakh years, when people will become so
small that they will climb up a brinjal plant on a ladder. So I am not
claiming all those things at all. Simply it's a name. What I am
maintaining is - Yes, I can give Enlightenment. I have the power to give
Enlightenment. This is the highest. In India it is believed that only
the greatest Avatar of God can give Enlightenment. That's the general
belief. You can do miracles, but giving Enlightenment is a different
story. I am not claiming anything more.
You come, whether you have faith or not, belief or not, I can still give
it to you. That's all there is to it.
Is there Mukthi? Is it possible to achieve?
Yes... hundreds achieved Mukthi. Thousands infact. Not just hundreds.
Its not a question of - can they achieve. They have achieved it. It's
over. You should meet and talk to them. You must meet Mukthas.
Is it possible to picturise that state of mind?
You can't picturise it.
Do all the Mukthas have miraculous power?
Not exactly. Some have the power to heal and some don't have. Not that
every Muktha has got the power to do something. Some have, some don't
have. That depends upon what you are seeking. Some have no interest in
miracles, so for such people we won't give those powers.
Is it possible to eliminate Human suffering through Dhyana?
See, Dhyana can help reduce the suffering a little bit. Beyond that any
Sadhanas are useless. All Sadhanas are only up to a point. After that
the returns are not there. It's not worth it. Up to a point, yes it's
OK. The only solution is Enlightenment. When Enlightenment happens you
are in a state of Dhyana 24 hours.
For all social, political and economical problems, is Enlightenment the
solution?
Yes.
Only solution?
Yes. The only solution. The ultimate solution. Let us say a man and a
woman are fighting. Suppose he or she is enlightened, there is no fight.
The Gundas in this Village (Varadhayapalem, Andhra Pradesh) are
conducting Sathsang now. This is a place where, when I came, people told
me - Why did you come to this place? It is such a terrible place. Full
of wife-beating. I said - I want exactly that place. Today the Gundas
are conducting sathsangs. So what has happened is transformation. They
don't drink. There is no wife beating. Everything has happened. Here,
water used to stagnate and there used to be cesspool everywhere. Now
everybody is co-operating. So, there is drainage and water does not
stagnate anywhere. There is a health
revolution taking place. People have stopped drinking. There is no wife
beating. There is love in the family. Everything is changing, through
Enlightenment. What could not be achieved by any rural organization has
been achieved by transforming the person.
What is the real meaning of Enlightenment?
See, to be enlightened is not to feel separate from the other. You are
there. You feel you are separate from all these people. Suppose you are
to become enlightened, you will say you only are the other. If you feel
that way, where can there be conflict? There can only be love. Isn't it?
That's all there is to it. And always there is happiness also. A happy
person cannot trouble others. An unhappy person will be pinching other.
Will give pain to others. After Enlightenment nobody gives trouble to
another. Everybody is happy. You will find in this village, all people
gathering, singing and dancing. All kinds. Caste is not a problem. Once
you are Enlightened there is no caste. The Harijan, the Bramhin, all
will be singing and dancing. Everything goes off. The caste is gone.
Muslims dancing with Hindus - you can see it in this
village. Everything has happened because they are in a different state.
They are all helping. You don't find street fights. Completely
transformed. And we had taken up this place because it was a horrible
place. That's where we have proved it. Total transformation.
Every month we are having a program. At least 500 people come for
Enlightenment from the local villages. People are standing in a queue,
because we cannot take more than that. It is spreading very fast.
Imagine the whole of India Enlightened. Then, what happens to all the
problems that we are talking about? There is a coolie in this village
who is Enlightened. Now, every rich man wants her to come their house
and perform Kalasha Pooja in their house. It's a pride to invite her to
their house now. All social dynamics have changed.
Westerners are also watching us very closely, because their interest is
that, if it can be done in other in other countries then terrorism can
be avoided. That is their interest. Therefore they are studying us very
closely. How come people are getting transformed so suddenly? Because
this does not take much time. Yesterday you were very ordinary. Today
you are transformed. Just 24 hours. And it's irreversible and permanent.
So what more can somebody ask for? Poor people in villages are dancing
in joy and they call their dance "The dance of Freedom". Even the
richest man in Karnataka cannot have 1/1000th of their joy. And ofcourse
along with this joy you will also become prosperous. The mind is so
clear. Whatever they touch, it is successful.
If Veerapan or Bin Laden are given the Deeksha, will they also be transformed?
Yes. If you bring Veerappan or Bin Laden, they'll be completely
transformed. It'll be over. Anybody can be transformed. Straight from
jail you can bring them. In regular jails of Andra Pradesh, we brought
about tremendous transformation. Strangely their cases have been
dismissed and they all have gone out also without criticizing the
Government (at Srikakulam). We have also had requests from other
countries like Siberia to go and work in their jails.
What are the means to become happy?
To me happiness is when you help others. But helping others is not so
easy. When I do this Neuro-Biological transformation, you naturally feel
like helping others. And as you help others you become happy. You can
try and see. When you help you become happy. But you must be naturally
helping others, which is a state of mind.
What is your expectation from the press?
The press must play a very constructive role in building the society. It
is very often portraying negative news. It must do something very
positive because it is a very powerful tool. It can really push people
to do certain things. If that can be achieved it is a great thing.
How is it going to be in the next 10 years?
I am producing Enlightened people by the hundreds everyday. Soon it's
going to be an explosion. I will say this is the last phase of man. It
is like - Man has been building a house for so many thousands of years
now. And 2004 to 2012 is the grahapravesham. Man has reached the final
stage after all these years of struggle. You will see a very different
world, which you cannot even imagine now and it will happen very
fast,very, very fast.
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